Sunday July 1, 2007 – This Week’s Topic: Retail Religion
Comments(351) The Topic
Increasingly, African-American pastors are “supersizing” their churches as they create 20,000-member mega-churches, some equipped with ATMs, supermarkets and even their very own McDonald’s. What do you think about this trend?
What They Said
The guests on the show included, Rev. Jamaal Harrison-Bryant, Rev. Joel Osteen, Bishop 
Bernard Jordan, comedian Ricky Smiley and author Kimberla Lawson Roby. Each one presented a different viewpoint on churches partnering with businesses. Some, including Smiley and Lawson were skeptical, while the reverends defended the trend, saying it is sometihng new happening with religion. They argue that the church is becoming more influential when it goes into non-traditional arenas. They also insist that the message and mission of the church is not being compromised.
The Cartoon
Plus, check out the cartoon below created by talented artist Rajan Sedalia. You’ll see a different cartoon each week by the artist right here on this blog.
About the Cartoonist:
Rajan Sedalia lives the creative experience. A one-of-a-kind designer, cartoonist, inventor and artist capturing the essence of the country’s evolving cultural and political landscape like no other. Bringing a youthful, bold sensibility to his social commentary, his is a voice with a progressive stance about the need to not only tolerate, but understand our multicultural world of creativity. His art, inventions, designs and cartoons have been recognized by CBS, PBS, FOX, MSNBC, Columbia, Harvard, The Whitney Museum, Newsweek, Parade, Forbes, Popular Science, Black Enterprise and Business Week magazines.
Your Opinion
Hit ”Comments” above to write what you think about the show and megachurhes.
Money is a value system. How much of it we earn is what most people measure there value by. God loves us all the same. Each of us have equal value
in his relm. Money should not be used to make one person feel less valuable than the next. A church should NOT entertain value. It is to closely involved with business. Leading to compitition, leading to vanity, leading to a lost flock. “Careful people. Careful now.”
Money is a value system. How much of it we earn is what most people measure there value by. God loves us all the same. Each of us have equal value
in his realm. Money should not be used to make one person feel less valuable than the next. A church should NOT entertain value. It is too closely involved with business. Leading to competition, leading to vanity, leading to a lost flock. “Careful people. Careful now.”
My, My, My. PLEASE read Matthew 21, verses 12 and 13, which states that Jesus went into the temple and cast out everyone who was selling and buying things in the temple, overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those that sold doves. Then he said to them “It is written, “My house shall be called THE HOUSE OF PRAYER; BUT YE HAVE MADE IT A DEN OF THIEVES.” Now, if that upset Jesus way back then, why are we satisfied with it now. Religion has become too commercialized. Many, not all people go to church ti hear “What thus saith the Lord.” It has become an entertainement arena for many, because of the commercializations presented there are attached thereto. PEOPLE, WE NEED TO WAKE UP and live by the examples and directions given us by the bible. READ THE BIBLE, It’s in there.
Sweetness comment above was my exact thought as I listen to the so call minister.Jesus said there would be many coming in his name and professing one thing while doing another. We must remember that these(ministers)are human just like you and I
and are prone to the same infermities that we are.We were sent a Perfect man on earth(JESUS) to show by example how and what God’s will for us is.
To minister means to serve, but all I heard this minister say was that he was being served.Jesus it says in the Bible served and ministered to others, not the other way around. Remember Jesus spoke about the Widow’s Mite, she gave what she could afford and it was accepted, there should be noone charging(be it selling tickets,or what ever for one to come to the house of the Lord. The church the last time I looked was and is the people, not the physical building.We must read our Bibles so that we will not be misled, God’s tell us we will be held accountable for what we should have known(not WHAT another man told us was correct, but what the Bible SAYS).God owns the WORLD,he certainly don’t need our Money, but apparently some of those ministering in God’s name certainly need and want it for their own personal gains.God says(WHAT WILL A MAN HAVE PROFITED IF HE GAINS THE WHOLE WORLD AND YET LOOSES HIS SOUL)?.Ministers, I say this is food for thought, wouldn’t you? To the least you did or did not do it to my sheep, you do it or do not do it to me says God.Be Careful you who come in the NAME of GOD,(false profits),some of you have become like Satan himself, fallen from God’s glory, in the image of God the Bible says, and yet look at what how he allowed his GREED to have him ousted from God’s house as one of his Angels.How many of you have fallen victim to “GREED” fallen from God’s glory and are trying to take as many of his people with you as you can?. Please read your Bible for yourself, it holds the truth about what God’s accepts and what he does not accept, nomatter how many may choose to alter it to suit their needs.
I viewed your show today.And the only one that I
agreed with was the young lady (Kimberla Roby).
The socalled bishop(bernard jordan),used the
scripture Ecclesiastes 10:19; totaly out of context in trying to justify his greed. And the other preacher (bryant).Both of them are wrong
for thinking that God would have His church involved (committing spiritual adultery)with the
world.What they and others like them are involved
in is nothing but pure pharisaism.Please read 1Timothy 6:1-21; and you will see what the Lord says about those who are greedy for gain.Matt, 6:33;Lk.16:19;Mk.8:36;1Tim6:5,6;Php.1:21;Matt.6:24;Lk.16:9,11,13;God is not against money. He made money to be used for the glory of His coming kingdom ,and not for men to glorify themselves with the wealth and pleasure’s of the world,which
seems to be the case today with the megga-churches.So with all of this prosperity preaching
where dose it leave the poor and less fortunate?
What kind of god would cater too the materialy
wealthy and cast off the poor.The God i lovingly
serve teaches to always put the needs of others
before yourself(Philippians 2:3-5;).Jesus Christ
performed this unselfless act to the highest degree when he submitted Himself to the low death
of the cross, but glory be too God,because He is
risen.Matt.24:5,11;1Tim.4:1,2;2Tim3:1-7;4:3,4;
We are living in the last days before Christ’s return.The false prophets are among us ,three of them were on your show.Pray and ask God to give you spiritual discernment.Sincerly a servant of
CHRIST!
This is the second episode I have watched. I must say Bernard Jordan is pathetic, a joke, and an impostor. He is misleading viewers and misrepresenting a population of Christian believers. His debased comments seem to fit the corrupt perspective that alienates people from Christ.
For the sake of substantiating my argument, I would normally speak to a direct example. However, the times that Mr. Jordan speaks improperly are far too numerous to list. To be fair, here are two:
1. Mr Jordan stated, on the show about homosexuality, that “gay sex” is only a sin because it is outside of marriage. That is an absurd argument which leads one to the most direct conclusion that once our government allows gays to marry God will suddenly find homosexuality okay. You don’t need to quote the bible to know that this argument is flat out stupid. God is not a god that changes his opinion/rules because of what our Constitution or state laws say.
2. On the July 1st show, in a discussion about money, Mr Jordan referenced Ecclesiastes 10:19 without so much as a thoughtful explanation, let alone an educated one. The book of Ecclesiastes is one that must be read in totality. The scripture referenced is not as “plain” as it reads. The author’s focus of the book is summarized in scriptures 1:2 and 12:8 [Vanity of vanities, all is vanity]. The verse in 10:19 is what one might call biblical sarcasm. It would be like a modern American saying “why bother with politics because the corporations and their big money always win” [their "money answers everything"]. Mr Jordan’s reference to this scripture was a misquote and was manipulative.
I implore the producers and executives of this show, for the sake of its success and potential influence of its viewers, to get a more credible representation of the Christian community. I likely won’t watch again until then.
I agree with Tri31. As stated before in another forum, I was a member of Mr. Jordan’s church for about 4 years in the 90’s. And as I stated before, he charged for prophecy and was not necessarily a ‘touchable’ pastor. He had his entourage and the only ones that could get close to him were those who were willing to ’serve’ him or those who came into the flock with money or connections. He wasn’t necessarily interested in people without money which was very sad. Because these people were so starved for his attention that they would often put themselves in financial hardship and jeopardy so that they could be known as a ‘giver.’ I especially loved how he dodged the question when they asked him what kind of car was he driving. In the late 90’s he had at least 7 cars and one was a Bentely. It was only a couple of years ago did he Rev. Run give him the Rolls Royce. And yes, Rev Run is of course one of the priviledged ones who can get a private audience with the Bishop at any time. It’s amazing that now I am looking back and seeing all of the things that I knew were wrong but was too afraid to acknowledge. We all knew but we kept showing up Sunday after Sunday. I guess a few other have seen the light as well. He stated that he had under 100 members. Things have changed because he when I was there membership was around 300.
Where are the poor…with the Drug dealer…it is odvious that money belongs to no one there than the pimps…50c/TI/Snoop Dog/the Thugs/Lil Kim/The Brat/Whores/Prostitutes/not a one is complaining///Yang Yang Twins/East side Boys/The Bird Man and his Son/so we got this discussing music depiting…pimps…whores…anything goes…grinding…drugs…thugs just down right hate…tits and sex and more perversion… on one hand and the preacher on the other…who suppose to have the bling…look at the teeth of the rappers…watches…clothers cost more than an apartment on down payment on a house…Please…give me a break…God got this…God is in control…Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding…Donald Trump got mo money that he will ever spend…no one questioning it…look at these big corporations that will not even hardly let a black man into the door for a job…come on lets talk…Paris Hilton…who is that guy that does the porn on girls gone wild…is anybody paying attention…at least God see the heart of the person that give money to keep these churches going…God in his own time…check this out scripture: Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known…God see and know all…just like he let you live to see another day and those that think nothing of him he has given everyone of us another day to get right…you talk about the mega churches…yell what…talking about the mega industry that is causing young, old and middle age too to follow the lies to the artist you show every week on BET…got to go there…they got mo money with their lies and corruption that some of the mega churches…and they telling lies…aske them nothing but alcohol…drugs…thugs…tits and butts…these are the images shown to the youth of today…what a choice…brain washing is what I call it…lets talk about their lyrics and talk about the sermons that the preachers preach in the mega churches…God is rich…the earth is the Lords and all they that dwell on the earth…why wouldn’t a rich God want his Preachers, Teachers, Prophets rich just like their daddy…the rappers are not going to give their children less than what they have…just look at whats the name of all of them doing discussing things in the publics eye…Britney…and the rest of them…they getting drunk…wrecking cars…going to drug treatment centers…life in disarray…they got mega bucks…PLease…Russell Simmons…would his children have less than he…mega industry…what…and you talking about the preachers…Let God be God and every man be a liar…God is taking care of his…he know those that are his and those that are not…but the world in other words nothing but hell and damnation…with their mega bling…diamonds…spinners…so many cars and the church preacher is suppose to have a just get by…I dont think so…come with something else…lets talk about the corruption of the mega bling in the corrupt hip hop industry…they portray nothing good…Listen to the lyrics…look at what they offer…pimps hate women…whores and prostitutes hate men especially those with families…and the brothels (whore houses)is making mega money…you better pray and repent ask God to help you to understand his plan and read the Bible…Finally, Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also…whose report shall you believe??? should all the comedians have the bling and mega money…like Steve Harvey…Smiley…Will Smith…there are so many more I could name…you know…talking about mega…we gonna name the all…the actors mega money for lies and murders on and off screen…can we talk…
I really feel that the Bishop B. Jordan needs to re-read Ecclesiastes 10:19. I don’t interrupt the verse the way he does. He drives a Rolls Royce that was a gift to him from another money hungry minister. The verse is just letting you know that if you are not lazy and willing to work for what you need and want, the money can allow you to live a decent life. But if you just take what the Bishop said you’ll be headed down the same evil road he is. If he cared so much about others why not take that Rolls Royce($300,000.00) and provide shelter and food for his members that are in need. I feel that the ministers these days have taken the word of God and is abusing it for there own finanical benefit. Tell me how are you going to be blessed by giving 10% tithing and money to the building fund, overseas fund and all of the other funds they want you to give to each and every Sunday or every time you attend church. We’ll never get ahead in life because we are keeping the church ministers fat in the pocket!!
well i didnt watch the program,but i can pretty much get the idea of what went on, in the first place i’m a ghanian and ive lived in the states for a while. There is a big difference in the way a lot of the churches are run here compared to those of a less developed country. Over there not many people have a lot, so the only reward the congregration and ministers themselves seek are those that cannot be taken away from any man, the rewards waiting for us in heaven. the bible even said that we shouldnt be worried about things to gratify our flesh, but to put our hearts and minds towards the blessing and rewards in heaven. I come from a very small church, where our congregation is less than thirty people on a given week. Our pastors are not paid by the congregation, they have their own jobs aside from spreading the word. all of the tithes and offerings given are used for the maintainance of the church in supplies. just as one of the people commented, One of the only times Jesus Christ expressed anger was when he saw what was going on in the church, with people conducting buisness. If you didnt know, ATMs are for conducting buissness, that why you have never seen one at a library or a school, but only gas stations and grocery stores ( and some churches) i really believe that these ministers are not reading the word properly with the guidance of the holy spirit, because God doesnt look at your wallet he looks at your heart.
It’s not like they are building the mega churches and waiting for people to come.
You have a building that seats 500 and in a some years the membership has grown to over 5,000. Where would they fit. Don’t be stupid people. There are always crooks everywhere. You even had crooks in the slaver times and in the civil rights era in the black churches. They weren’t w/out controversy either. They preached one thing and then went out and made babies all over town. So the problem isn’t necessarily the preachers we have today. It’s the people.
It is nothing wrong with going to a “mega church”. I know for a fact that I pay my tithe and I see it being put to use in my church. We offer so much AND IT’S FREE. Yet because we aren’t standing on the corner serving food to the homeless we aren’t doing anything. We don’t have to stand out there when our money is being supplied to the organizations that do it. We don’t have fish frys or sell chicken dinners to get what we need. We just have faithful partners who know their reasonable service to sow and reap so we have what we need.
If you didn’t have any money in the church, we will be w/out AC in the summer or heat in the winter. We couldn’t pay for our buildings w/out loans (we do it in cash). We wouldn’t be able to pay for utilities that it takes to run the buildings. Pay the employees who work for the church and give them FULL BENEFITS PACKAGES. We wouldn’t be able to supply WELLS in Africa for the purification of the water supply. We wouldn’t be able to win souls to the Lord by using the television and the airwaves. We wouldn’t be able to survive if we didn’t have mONEY. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING MONEY. It’s the LOVE OF MONEY ABOVE THE LOVE OF THE LORD>
Why should a Pastor or anyone else take their automobile and sell it when God said that the poor we will have with us always. Just think about it if you feed that person then they are in worse postion then before, because when the food and money are gone then they will looking for someone else to give to them again, but if they teach them how they got that car or house then when that person is gone they can use that same faith to get it over and over again. We as men and women of God should not be depending on satan and his angels to take care of us.Whatever christians are buying, christians should be suppling. We are in the image of Christ Jesus and whatever He has we have. He was never going around without His needs a or any of His disciples needs unmeet.We are created in His likeness. We have to start reading our bibles after the Pastor gives a sermon and check out the scriptures to see that what he said was true. Follow the WORD. A lot of times we go in church and come out the same way we went in with no change.Get in that word and allow God throught the Holy Spirit to direct your path to the man/women of God that you should be under to help direct you.You need that direction. Look at the bible the diciples followed Jesus, and Jesus followed God so,yes you need that person of God to follow. If you always have the same compassion of LOVE that God has and Jesus has then you will never have to worry about anyone taking advantage of you God will protect His own.
I didn’t watch the program when it aired at 11am since I was in Church at one of those “Mega Churches”
.
It was supposed to air again at 10pm but of course BET would have rather showed that nasty Bet awards with all of those half naked women and ronchy men and dancers. And illiterate people.
BET, are you going to air this again? Can I watch it on the Web? I think you should get a broader list of people to interview. I get tired of seeing the same people on these shows. And they usually get ones that don’t know what they are talking about or are misguided.
I know for a fact that Bishop E. Bernard Jordan is an imposter. Anytime that you have to air on television that you are giving “FREE” prophesies if I call in. That to me sounds like a Palm Reader or Psychic friends hotline. Why should you even have to state that it is free. What is that all about. Get a grip. If I pray in the Holy Ghost like I should, I will get all of the prophesy I need. However, there will be times when someone has a word for me. That shouldn’t be my lifestyle. If I stayed in the word, the word will speak to me. And for him to even ordain Rev. Run is pathetic. How can you mock God as you have. You shall receive Judgement on all those who mock God.
BET, thank you for exposing the “tickling ear” ministries. My husband and I watched it and were angered by the “reverend’s” comments. I have heard of men deciding to go into the ministry just for the money! The reverend on yesterday’s show seem to be one of those. I don’t understand why he is not worried of God’s Judgement? It will surely not be what he expects if he thinks he is heaven bound.
And after reading all of the comments before this one, I am most certain that this man was not called by God to do anything for Him except to repent.
I was very dissappointed with the choice of guests for this show. The people seemed to be foreign to the scriptures. Bernard Jordan is a joke. He’s about as biblically sound as a marvel comic book.
It’s hard to “sell” me on the idea of partnering with major corporations to win the world for Christ. I do, however, see how these mega church prophets (more like profits)are able to increase their bottom line by the deals. It make great “business” sense but, is that What Jesus Would Do? I doubt it.
The Bible declares that truth sets us free. For the season of apostasy is upon us. Godless men and women have become lovers of themselves and the temporal things of this world having forsaken the Kingdom of God for meat and drink.
Such things are written and well cited by all of the comments. Therefore, we know each of them is bound by their circumstances.
We must pray for YHWH grace, peace, and mercy for their souls. Likewise, we must pray that God’s Will to be done.
Let us ask our Father to open the blinded eyes, minds, and spirits for those beguiled by the works of the enemy and for spiritual revival to now come in the lives of all of His people in Jesus Name.
I viewed the program on Sunday and I was shocked and appalled by Bishop Jordan. He came across as a money hungry preacher. He is a joke. I once attended a Mega church in New Orleans and looking back they all have the same outlook on money, which is “Give, Give, Give!” The question is what do we get back??? The preachers make it seem like God is blessing them with all this money but in truth it is the people in the pews that are filling the preacher’s pockets. Preachers will never tell you this because they want to create a sort of mystery about where the money comes from. It is all a game that preachers play and in these days you have to have a personal relationship with God for yourself!!!
In short, the basis of the Prosperity message is to get more, more, more and that is what the preachers want. The only reason this Prosperity message works is because we are a materialistic society!
People kill me thinking that people that work in ministry should live lesser lives and prosper less than others. People who work secular jobs do so in order to feed and clothe themselves and their families but also in the process they produce at their jobs and their bosses, the CEO’s of their companies prosper because of their production. You don’t ever hear nobody complaining about what the boss drives and makes. I work in music ministry and it is my full time job. God sees fit to take very good care of me but also my pastor is financially sound. He preaches truth and has no gimmicks or fakeness about him. Too many christians hinge their faith and belief to that of their pastors without having the sense to get in the word themselves and learn how to let God speak to them. I cant be concerned with what my pastor drives and where he lives because it definitely will not get me into heaven, however I can be concerned with making sure that I take control of my own life and destiny and learn to make the decisions that will be pleasing to God so that when I get to heaven He will say well done my good and faithful servant. Be blessed.
I did not see the program, but I agree that some rev’s are being blinded by money. We should not lump all ministers in one big barrel, because there are some pastors with mega-churches that are fullfilling the great commission and yet still have a great business sense. I believe there should be a separation though. The sanctuary in one place and business venture in a different location. No the preacher should not use tithes & offering for their personal use. If they receive a salary, then that money is theirs to use as they please.
The bottom line is what kind of fruit is the church producing. I believe a mega-church has a responsibility to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit the imprisioned and sick as Jesus spoke of in Matt. 26. This is every Chrisitans mission work but I think especially a mega church since they have the resources.
Just know that there are no perfect churches, they all have flaws no matter how big or small. Build your relationship with Lord and He will direct you on where to worship, how much to give, and how to use your gift. All we have to do is trust & obey in how He leads.
I haven’t seen the show at all but am tickled by the various comments. I belong to a church which I would consider a mini-mega church. In my opinion, a mega church is something that develops over time. Its not an automatic formation. A church might start out small but will grow over time due to its involvement in the community, the Word being fed, and often the referrals of its members. At the church I attend, folks come and go all the time. As my Bishop says, there’s the door. Feel free to leave at any time. Not only is the church I attend prospering but the Saints are prospering as well. I pay my tithes not because my Bishop asks, but because the Bible instructs me to. I also give to the ministry as the Lord leads me. There is an annual budget meeting for all tithe paying members of the church. We hear and see where every dime goes. There maybe be some bishops, pastors, ministers and other members of the clergy who take advantage of god-fearing people. Pray that the Lord gives you a discerning spirit so you will know where you should worship. I watch some tv ministry shows. Some shows I connect with and some I don’t. Its my decision to turn the channel. If a mega church, or any size church, is not for you, don’t go. Find a place where you can worship and feel comfortable. Not every church is for everybody. We all have our own minds. Lets use them to God’s glory. Peace!
THE DRUG DEALER DOES NOT GET 10% OF ONES PAY CHECK HE GETS 100%…SELLING POISON TO YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS…ANYBODY EVER BEEN ON DRUGS…GOT SOMETHING TO TELL YOU…AFTER YOU SPIN ALL OF YOUR MONEY FOR THE JUNK THEY SELL YOU AND TRY TO GET A HAND-OUT THEY LAUGH AT YOU…DRIVING AROUND IN THEIR ROLES ROYCE…GOT MO BLING YOU EVER SEEN…PIMPS WITH HIS WHORES IN MINK COATS PUSHING SEX…LETS TALK…YOU TALKING ABOUT PREACHERS…NEXT TIME YOU LOOK AROUND…CHECK OUT THESE CORNER BARS…I BELIEVE HE/SHE RIDES A CAR YOU NEVER SEEN…TOLD YOU GOD GOT THIS…EVERY DECEIVER IS GOING TO ANSWER FOR HIS/HER EVIL DEEDS…GOD IS FAIR AND JUST…KEEP WATCHING GOD…AGAIN LOOK AT THE HIP HOP INDUSTRY…PRODUCING GARABAGE AND GETTING PAID TO SELL SEX…TITS…PORN…BUTTS AND NO ONE IS REALLLLLY…REALLLLY COMPLAINING…ITS TIME FOR A SHOW DOWN…GOD VS LYRIC 50 cent… JOY STICK…WHATS THAT…THE REST OF THEM…nothing but THUGS…DRUGS…SEX…PORN…they preaching something in their MEGA INDUSTRY…NO HOPE IN THE JUNK THEY GIVE YOU…GOD HELP US ALL…LETS TALK…DRUG DEALER KILLING NEIGHBORHOODS AND LEAVING NOTHING BUT…CORRUPTION…DESTRUCTION…
AND CONFUSION…HEAR THE WORD OF GOD: WOE be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD…GOD GOT ANY OF THEM THAT ARE OUT OF ORDER…LETS CLEAN UP THESE COMMUNITIES AND GET THE FALSE PREACHER STANDING ON THE CORNER DEALING DRUGS MAKING MEGA BUCKS…AND THESE VIDEOS THAT DEPIT DRUGS…ALCOHOL AND SEX…SAME THING AS DRUG DEALER..GLAMORIZING THE LIFE STYLE THATS ROBBED SO MANY…LETS TALK
I didn’t see the show, but now and days when I go around and hear what’s being preached in churches today, 3% of the Word of God is said, and the rest is to entertain, or is the preacher’s own outlook of his vision. Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: No I don’t think all Pastor’s are fony, but I believe people see, but don’t see. People talk but don’t talk. If they choose to support those who really aren’t following God, fine and well, at the end they are RESPONSIBLE after hearing the TRUTH of the Word of God. If your in a place where you see things going on for yourself and not speaking up on your behalf, regardless if it continues or not, your responsible. The Holy Ghost is real, and Jesus will reveal to you, through the Holy Ghost what’s right and what’s wrong, be blessed!
I can honestly understand both sides of this show. On the one side you have the ministers who seem to have it all and on the other, the poor members who can barely pay their light bill and paying tithes and offering. Oh, if that were true!!! Good topic!!!! We have good representation as well as false representation from the pulpit to the door all across this nation. We have megachurches doing good and helping the widows, children and the community and small churches milking the people of God dry and vice versa.
That is why we have to study to word for ourselves to show ourselves approved. You have to know the word of God for yourself.
Ms. Roby said that the Bible says that money is the root of all evil. It does not say that! The Bible says that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. The Bible also speaks of the workman being worthy of his hire…how come if Diddy amd Jay are the workmen it’s okay for them to have a jet but, if that workman is your pastor it’s a sin!!! We can’t continue to associate money with evil, that’s crazy!!! Yes there are other messages in tbe Bible besides prosperity but, the Bible does speak an awful lot about prosperity because, what do we always want more of????? But prosperity means more than just money, the Bible said that God wants us to prosper and be in health even as our soul prospers. That’s a COMPLETE prosperity message, NOT just financial prosperity.
If a megachurch is not where you want to be because you want the pastor to know your name, go to a smaller church. But where ever you go, make sure they are teaching the uncompromised WORD OF GOD!!!
As far as Bishop Jordan being a fake…I don’t know him and the Bible says not to judge. (There’s a message that’s not on prosperity!) But I tell you what, let Rev. Run or anyone else give me a phantom and folk have a problem because I’m a christian and driving a phantom, yall can talk till Jesus comes back but, you won’t block my blessing!!!! SAY AMEN SOMEBODY!!!!
I’m not saying give the church all your money. The Bible says we are to use temperance in all things as well as wisdom.
Again, good topic but, you have only scratched the surface of this one!!!!!
Coming August 15th 2007
Talk Show Host Reuben Armstrong Will Release His First Book “SNAKES IN THE CHURCH” . This Will Be One Of New York’s Best Seller, This Book Will Expose How Churches And Pastors Are Deceiving Members And True Believers Of Their Hard Earn Money For Fame And Fortune
http://www.snakesinthechurch.com
http://www.reubenarmstrongshow.com
Airing the show was great! This is programming that is both beneficial and educational for all. After reading the aforementioned blogs, it’s acutely obvious that all these good Christians still don’t get it. The Bible was written by inspired men who were guided by the Holy Ghost. Now, with that in mind, the interpretation of the Bible is up for grabs. Whose interpretation will you accept. In many cases you will believe what what your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. believed. You see you have been indoctrinated since birth. The indoctrination is almost inpenetrable. When you are able to think analytically and objectively good Christians, you will be able to get it. Don’t you know that the minister profession has a code of behavior and trade secrets like all other professions. These trade secrets are grounded in predictable outcomes. I’ll just give one example because changing years of indoctrination is futile.(look at the results of slavery) Notice how the congregation reacts when the preacher raises his voice. If you can’t see what the intent is and correlation to trade secrets, you are hopeless.
BET keep this program on the air – Please!
Not all churchs are mega-churches. If you want a church that is less extragant there are plenty to choose from. The church has been at the center of the movement to advance black people. Churchs have paid sholarships, created jobs, backed issues, created schools, and ministered to the sick and needy. Yes people even the underground railroad was church operatred.
A little clarity, it was NOT THE CHURCH that Jesus thru the money changers out of it was the Temple. The Temple required animal sacrifices and that is what they where selling. Theses people did not believe in Jesus as the Christ they where following the law of Moses in the Old Testament at this time they did not call it church. When you go to the Book of Acts you will see how the early church gave. They broughts there gifts and laid them at the Apostles feet. The gospel was spread and the community was care for.
This subject is a big one to cover. But we can all watch how we use money. BET has helped several people achive riches even though they do not present themselves as good role modles. They call our women terrible names and portray our brothers as thugs, glamourazie drugs and alcohol but for them to have diamonds or a nice car is cool. And believe or not some poor people are not giving their money to the Pastor but they will give thier last dollar to that Hip Hop Artisit.
BET did spend their money well on Tavis Smiley
who covered may issues to help the Black community, Oops! They took him off the air.
The comparison between a corporate CEO/company worker and a church pastor is one that should not be made. CEO’s start with the intent to make money for the company which in turn they make money. Does the Pastor’s start out with the same intent? If so they need to get a job like everybody else! It is true that they should take care of there families but what happened to moderation by these so called men on God. Do they really need the jets, Bentley’s, 4 cars and $3000 suits? When is it time to give back? Answer: Never!!!!! It is simply because Black people love things. When is enough, enough? Never!!! Why is the preacher trying to keep up with the drug dealer, the actor, the rapper and the athlete?
There needs to be a revival of monetary moderation in the black church because these black folks have lost their minds!
TV TALK SHOW HOST REUBEN ARMSTRONG RELEASE
AUGUST 15TH 2007
“SNAKES IN THE CHURCH”
THIS BOOK EXPOSE THE MEGACHURCHES AND THE MEGA PASTORS
FOR MORE INFORMATION LOG ON TO
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This program really got my husband and my juices flowing. We felt like anyone who has a problem with a pastor living “well” is just hatin’. Why is is so acceptable for rappers, actors etc…to live a wealthy lifestyle but sinful for a messenger of God to live well? I belong to a mega church but it was once a very small church. The pastor was teaching the word and the people came. So he built a bigger church. The people kept coming…there were no seats and no parking so he built a bigger church! What is the big deal. If a pastor is doing a good job preaching the word, he should be living well. And what church does Kimberly belong to that preaches on only money every week of the year. If my pastor only preached on money and not about helping and healing people, I wouldn’t go to that church. How can she possibly think that all churches preach the same thing all year. All this “hateration” is the problem in the black community. We don’t want to see anyone else prosper because we aren’t and most times, we aren’t prospering not because we aren’t capable of making the money but because we invest in partying, rims, fronts, the liquor store, name brand clothes and name brand shoes etc… that we just can’t afford (yet). We are so busy trying to uphold this “image” while living paycheck to paycheck (making the creators of these products rich!!)The devil is stealing your money!!That is what the ministers are trying to tell you. Learn how to spend and invest your money wisely!!! Be more committed to empowering yourselves instead of watching the men of God so closely. If they are crooked, God will take care of them. Trust God, get educated and stop hating!
i see how this works.
If you see someone doing something you don’t like, you pelt them with verses.
If you don’t see what’s wrong with it, the bible is never mentioned.
Jesus said: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven”
A young man came up to Jesus asking what shall i do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus said one thing do you lack, sell all your goods to the poor then come back and follow me.
when jesus sent out his disciples he told them to take a staff, a tunic, and sandals and to ask for whatever they needed from others.
When we talk about homosexuality, the Bible is to be taken literally as our roadmap or guide
But when it’s something you don’t find feasible like living moderately, everything’s symbollic.
Here’s the deal: I’ll continue to be a lesbian, while ministers continue to roll in the dough. If you ignore scripture, don’t expect me to change my life because of a verse
You missed the end of that Scirpture. The disciples where stuned and shocked by what happened to the rich young ruler and asked, Who then can be saved? Jesus anwsered,”With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” St Matthew 19:26
Jesus also told them ” And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, of father, or mother, or wife, or children for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, AND shall inherit everlasting life.” St Matthew 19:29
Everything a church has dose not come out of members pockets. There are wealthy people, Companies, and other givers who are looking for worthy causes. Some give to United Way and some to the Church.
Black people Lets be Real, proably all of us have been blessed by some church program, from give-a-ways, youth programs, health fairs, and just about everybody has had a free plate of food at some church gathering.
It so sad to see the day when we as a people whose faith was the cornerstone of our struggle have got blessed, educated, desegragated, studied what other folk believe and turn our back on the church, the bridge that brought us over.
My problem is there’s so many ministers clinging to material goods. They boast about their cars and houses in sermons and see prayer as a means to justify whatever greed they have, not as a way to come and know God. Like the young man Jesus talked to, there heart is not in the right place. The give-a-aways are good. The jewelry and expensive suits… not so much.
There are ministers serving both God and mammon and it doesn’t work. Business wise it might work, but spiritually, no. They haven’t forsaken anything. They have more than most people and some of them aren’t satisfied. Look at Bishop Jordan’s website. It looks like the spiritual amazon.com.
I’m glad you pointed out with God all things are possible. Because people will be in heaven who you never thought possible.
My pastor does not arrogantly boast about his blessings but he will testify upon the goodness of God and all that He has done for him which includes nice cars and houses. Funny that when somebody dies or their is a civil uprising in the community, the pastor is the first person called and many times by those who do not even attend church at all. If the pastor drove a bucket and kept his family in an efficiency apartment haters will say he should be shame and do better. If the pastor drives a benz and lives in the suburb, the haters will say he doing too much. He cant win and its just another situation that people need to get over, mind they business, come to church and worship God and leave the simple stuff alone. If the church would get on one accord and leave all the silly conversations outside, the church community would begin to see God move in a major phenomenal way, to the point where the young lady above would be delivered from being lesbian and she would be able to see God moving in her life as well as throughout all of our communities. Its people like her that because of the current behavior of the church, will not ever be delivered and set free and begin to live for God because the church is so divided and worried about everything but real ministry. Regardless of what any pastor drives, God is real and is coming back soon. Get ready!
Being from the roman catholic/anglican/orthodox tradition, seeing ministers so tied up with earthly goods is unnatural for me and for many others of my background. We feel that our ministers our to imitate Christ and Christ did not seem to have the concern for the material that we have. Also being from this tradition, we admire ministers for giving up worldly goods. The experience of haters calling a minister a shame for having less is completely for foreign to me.
I’m sorry but if everyone was on one accord i still would be who i am. I was just using those verses for emphasis.
Happy fourth of july
Religion has and will continue to be “Big Business.” It’s extremely unforunate and equally concerning that the “message” in many cases is not so much about saving souls (provide guidance during these troubled times), but more so about this week’s collection plate or other sales related revenue and then boasting about “what the lord has done for me.” Rather than encouraging/demanding new business developments in the community, business leaders are now pursuing this “new avenue” of setting up shop in the church. And, who’s to blame…those greedy self-serving clergymen who are sending our people to hell in a rocket ship. Case in point, I visited New Birth a number of years ago and was floored to see ATM machines in the confines of the church. Within weeks of visiting this church, I saw “Bishop” Eddie Long cruising downtown Atlanta in his convertible Bentely (top down, of course) wearing a muscle shirt and a Kangol on backwards. Maybe it’s just me, but it’s not the congregations that are the benefiting from church…it’s the one’s running it.
I once belonged to a “church” that took and took money and time until I stopped it and had to write a letter to the leader stating I would go to the police if his people were to continue harassing me! These people start their own churches so they can control all the money and the people. They go to church 7 days a week and even had service on July 4,2007, now that’s control. I have not had any trouble with them and it’s too bad that these so called pimping pastors use the people thatneed spiritual help the most. These people come from one bondage of the streets and into another bondage of false prophets and preachers. Let’s all pray that people wake up and stop believing everything that comes out of these so called pastors mouths. The only ones I see “profiting” are the leaders of their churches.
I did not watch the show and frankly very glad that I didn’t. I am careful not to give the devil a platform in my life …. however I did read many of the comments. First of all the word tells us to judge not; lest ye be judged (paraphrased). Even if each minister on the platform were complete fakes the word tells us that we have no right to judge them. We are all going to be held accountable for our own actions. Let’s not waste time pointing the finger but fall on our knees and pray that the lost souls are not mislead. Pray that those that are saved look to the Lord for the help. The word tells us everything we need to know to go to heaven and to properly manage our lives while here on earth. God’s plans are perfect; the word tells us that his thoughts are not like our thoughts and his ways are not like our ways….that is why we cannot judge …. we don’t know what truly lies beneath; or what truly is in one’s heart. We don’t know who is still being delivered or who is still in bondage. You have try the spirit by the spirit. If the Holy Spirit is telling you that something is wrong again, pray & seek wise counsel and move on. The word tells us that even a just man shall fall seven times…People it’s okay to feel uneasy but by all means keep your tongue, guard you heart and your soul. The only ones that will be there on the day of judgement is you & God. Spend time preparing for that. Case in point if I come in contact with a false prophet or one that I don’t quite feel is right (and I have) I just don’t receive them… but I am careful not to sin in my fleshly thoughts … I am careful not to rip them up with my words….God does not like or reward ugly. What if God were to air all of our dirty laundry? hmm hmm … so walk in the spirit..the biggest profit is a life filled w/Christ Jesus.
“Be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind” This should say it all. As believers, we should not conform to worldly methods to teach Godly values. That is itself a compromise of who we are. When this is done, it is difficult to tell the church from the club. I’ve seen pastors on stage with platinum chains and jerseys on preaching. Are you kidding me? God loves us all, but to truly follow him, you must give up the worldly ways. I feel like to hip-hop culture has had more influence on the church than the church has had on it. Pastors need to stop lying to people and telling them the promises of God without preaching about his expectations of us. We are starting to think we can get something for nothing. I have more to say but I’ll spare you.
Reuben Armstrong Show Will Release in August 2007
“Snakes in the PULPIT”
http://www.reubenarmstrongshow.com
http://www.snakesinthechuch.com
What’s right is right and wrong is always wrong. On the 7/1/07 Broadcast there was a gross miss representation of God’s word. Please I beg of your guests that if you are going to quote God’s word please first have read it for yourself and not just say what it is that you have heard someone else say. Readers please understand money is not the root of all evil. That is what evil would have you to believe. The word says “For the love of money is the root of all evil”. Not money it’s self Money is just a tool. It is how you use it that will either make it good or evil.
Ms. Roby also stated that she does not see where the money is going and people are still poor and struggling. I suggest that Ms. Roby. Get connected to her pastor work with and for him. Be on a fund raising committee or two. Then she will see. You see where the money is going by taking part. Don’t just give it walk away. Besides that by being a business woman her self. I am sure she knows that her books did not write and publish themselves. I believe the understanding with her publisher is that they were to get paid also. As far as the poor are concerned the word also states that the poor will be with you always. Basically, There will always be someone there that will not grasp the word full. He came that we would have life and life more abundantly. Some will hear that and think that means that they will just live a long time. That’s not the case unless you have and use the money to take care of yourself properly.
Could it be that us “church” folks are so concerned with going to heaven that we forget that God has called us to make a difference on earth? Jesus told His 12 disciples to leave everything and meet the needs of the people. Does that mean that pastors and ministers should be paupers? No, but we(ministers)are mandated to meet the needs of the people first,just like the disciples were. There is nothing wrong with a big church if its mission is to truly meet the needs of the people and the people must understand that God is not a respector of person, of money, or social class. The size of the church you attend is a matter of choice. Just remember to choose wisely. Our spiritual growth is our responsibility.
Yes, the poor will be with us always but does that mean that “the church” is supposed to sitback and say thank you LORD, you didn’t let me be poor? Is there something we can do to break the physical chains that hold people back? Faith without works is dead…
First of all, as a divinity student I know that Mr. Jordan misinterprets scripture and he is not biblically sound as a “so called prophet”.
If you really want to see something impressive I would suggest that you visit “Willow Creek” church in Chicago…it is awesome.
Anything can be taken to the extreme and it seems that many of our pastors and pastors in our world today have strayed from the true “intent of the kingdom of God”.
Additionally, BET is so hypocritical… It promotes violence, ignorance and exploitation of our own people; while on the other hand it has preaching, and teaching of the word of God from different Pastors within mainstream America….BET make up your mind either your are going to be a positive agent of change or continue to be a negative force that continues to drive many of our people into deeper depths of ignorance.
Tr31 hit the nail on the head! E. Bernard Jordan is a crook, straight up. And I refuse to watch the show because I know what he represents. Mia 1221 is telling the truth, only those with money are in the Bishop’s circle. Rev. Run trust me has paid for his status as well. I attended bishop Jordan’s school of the prophets in the 90’s and god exposed this man’s true being…trust me E. Bernard Jordan is a greedy fake, who have misled many and is going to bust hell wide open…
I did’t see the show, but I wanted to see it. My concerns with the large congretion is with the basic priniciple of Jesus Christ being presented. Not the hype of the proclaim Pastor, not the dramatic music,(and I love the choir & instiments) and not the crowd pleaseing tactics. Just simply Jesus and his percepts word for word and line by line, nothing more and nothing less.
All I know is in Ecclesiastes 10 King Solomon was speaking of GOVERNMENT. In Ecclesiastes 10:16-20 he was specifically speaking of the mutual duties of Kings/Princes and their subjects. The King/Princes are to be wise, mature and conservative. The subject are to work hard. Stay on top of what needs to be done. Bring in the money to keep the houe (kingdom) strong.When he said “money answers everything”, he was speaking of the needs of the house/kingdom(the earthly kingdom). Eccl 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life merry, but money is the answer for everything. In context King Solomon is stating that it is money that is going to answer the needs of the earthly kingdom. You want a strong kingdom? Feasts? Wine? Well money will answers all of these things. You have to look at verse 10:19 in context with verses 10:16-20 READ YOUR BIBLE PEOPLE! TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR ANYTHING READ IT YOURSELF!
Thank You Biyanna. My comment was in regards to the same misuse. In context, Solomon made the statement in regards to the conditions of the house caused by slothfulness, the desire for feast and wine. All these things will be answered with money. Money does not answer all things as stated by the Bishop of Zoe Ministries. If money answered all things there would be no need for Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. The Jewish community could have just coined more money or used more of the Roman Currency.
Also while I agree with the point the young lady was making, she misquoted the scripture. The scripture states that “the love of money” is the root of all evil. Money has only the power that we give it. That is motivated by our priority:God or Money. We make the choice.
Thank you for the program. Dr. Smith, I commend you for your ability to moderate such passionate people on such potentially volatile topics.
I have one request. In the streaming pictures of different faiths will you add an obviously American Black protestant representation
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